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User talk:Franken Kesey/Viveka Spectre (3.5e Prestige Class)
Suggestions Affect It is in my interest, clear up the gross anomaly's in this PrC. So, most suggestions will deeply effect this class - I greatly appreciate them. I am new to this twist, so loopholes and confusion, I am riddled with. I have found that the mind will fill mistakes for you - for you know the path - you already know the intent. That's why peer review is so important - the elasticity is gone - the inside meaning is outside. So thank you for your generous contributions and time. And remember, we (at times) use chaos and insanity here! "Good Night and Good Luck" --Franken Kesey 18:29, February 17, 2010 (UTC) Prerequisites Isn't 19 Wis a bit high? Limits it needlessly to clerics, druids, and ardents in my mind... Perhaps keep it at 15? That seems pretty high for most SAD classes while still having it low enough so that people can enter the class with preperation. What are finite ideas? Wouldn't it easier to just "cannot be lawful"? Why not make it Knowledge (arcane) instead of (the planes) so sorcerers can join as well? And what do you mean "alter matter"? Could you be a little more specific? --Ghostwheel 02:45, February 14, 2010 (UTC) :Your right about the wisdom, lower would be better. But I still think it should be above average. Will 16 and above do? Vroons do very well in this class - noting there Wisdom. :Does lawful entail most religion? (If so I will change it). :The reason that I did not put arcana is, I couldn't think of an ability for the "familiar understanding" skill that would link with it. If you find one, let me know. :I just recently created this class 2 weeks ago on another site. Thus have yet to find all of its loop holes. My meaning of "alter matter", originality, was capability of casting any transmution spell or power. :Thankyou --Franken Kesey 07:40, February 14, 2010 (UTC) :: I think 15 works, since most prerequisites for ability scores are odd--though I don't know why you want to make it a prereq. If people have it high, they'll benefit more from the class, and if not they won't. :: Lawful entails a rigid morale code, from what I understand. It also stops anyone from a monkish persuasion (whether the class or outlook, in general) from taking the class. Is there an actual reason you want people to not be Lawful? :: Spellcraft or Psicraft work, since virtually all primary spellcasters and manifesters have one or the other. :: So say so--"must be able to cast at least one spell from the transmutation school, or one power from the discipline. The less vague the better. --Ghostwheel 07:50, February 14, 2010 (UTC) :::Due to the fact that many of the natural and social rules are broken in this class. I thought it would be better if the character was not lawful - "for all laws can be broken". A crazy character might be able to pull it of - but for most it would be a blunder to be lawful. :::How is the class doing otherwise - balancing, depth, etc... --Franken Kesey 08:04, February 14, 2010 (UTC) Rating and Status Currently is there anything incomplete or not understandable? Is the incomplete template still necessary? --Franken Kesey 16:30, February 14, 2010 (UTC) :For me, the class features are not totally explained (Complete Possession is still blank) and many many of the currently filled in class features are quite subjective and, in some cases, mechanically lacking. Unfinished Business (stating that the character must have some task to perform) is particularly tricky). Roleplaying is good and all, but forcing those tasks onto the character can be frustrating for both the player and his comrades to handle. Also, the flavor seems strange because the fluff states that the nahlasit is a master at controlling matter, but most of its abilities are gears towards possession and separation of mind and body, which seems rather contrary to controlling matter in my opinion. - TG Cid 20:34, February 14, 2010 (UTC) ::Plus, grammar. It's very important. Surgo 21:18, February 14, 2010 (UTC) :::In what way are they lacking (examples)? In reference to "unfinished business", I put a note right above it stating it was a guideline - "not law". In other words you don't have to do any of the examples, and can adopt it to you campaign. I put it there for to create a lucrative range, that's all. I'll try to make it mo better. I had intended on the control of matter literally and that of a physic. But your correct its a bit unbalanced, in the class feature section (altered); but do you think the spells compensate? Thanks --Franken Kesey 22:22, February 14, 2010 (UTC) What's up with the saves?Idkwhatmynameis 22:20, February 14, 2010 (UTC) :I hate over-powered classes (and prestige classes); the low saves are my insurgence. Should I switch providers? Are they over-zealously low? Is it compensated by the high class features and spells? I need more criticism than "whats up". Thanks --Franken Kesey 22:27, February 14, 2010 (UTC) ::I find it odd that you say you hate overpowered classes, and then try to balance something to wizard level. A lot of people here would say that Wizard level stuff is overpowered on its own. Dropping saves is a bizarre place to try to reduce a classes effectiveness though. DCs grow at between 3 points every 4 levels and 1 point every level, while good saves grow at 1 point every other level (except in some rare primary stat synergy cases). If you get the biggest cloak of resistance you can afford and keep boosting it when appropriate, you average a boost of 3 every 4 levels, which only barely keeps up with save DC jumps. I guess what I'm getting at is that nerfing saves is a wierd places to try to reign in a class since they already barely / don't keep up with effect DCs (though the +2s you get at the start or PrCs does help a bit). You're probably better off tweaking active abilities than passive defenses. - TarkisFlux 08:23, February 15, 2010 (UTC) :::Sorry mis-worded. I just appreciate the standards of this site in relation to some other DnD sites; and am trying to keep this class within the confines of a "balance". Bard is the only spell casting class that is not in the "wizard balance" - so I went with wizard. Would rogue be better? I don't know all the lingo - PrCs? --Franken Kesey 08:56, February 15, 2010 (UTC) ::::In relative terms, to many other prestige classes in the SRD and homebrew, namely: SRD:Mystic Theurge, SRD:Dragon Disciple, SRD:Arcane Trickster, and Waltz of Blades (3.5e Prestige Class); the saves appear high or normal. In most cases (except fortitude), they are not 3 every four. The SRD:Mystic Theurge has almost exactly the same scores at tenth level as a 7th level Nahlasit. Should it be moved above these standards? Also do you think this class needs negative tweaking? --Franken Kesey 17:45, February 15, 2010 (UTC) :::::I was comparing saving throw DCs (which grow 1 every 2 levels because of spell/power level growth and 1 every 4 levels because of casting stat boosts from levels / HD inflation and item enhancements before you start including things like DC boosters) with saving throws (the good ones only grow 1 every 2 levels, though you can pay for an extra 1 every 4 in item form; the poor ones don't even keep up that well) to point out that making saves worse than they already get for most characters is jsut bizarre. They already don't keep up most of the time, much less get awesome (rogue, cleric, and druid are minor exceptions), so nerfing a save progression to bring a class down seemed like a weird place to do it. :::::Since that's not what you actually did though (just took a closer look, and was wrong on initial assessment), it's not really a criticism. You're using non-standard progressions, but they are as good or better than standard progressions, so whatever. :::::As to whether it needs to be brought down, I'm still not sure what half of the abilities do or even what balance point you're aiming for. So I can't answer that question, because I don't know what you're aiming for or how it's going to fit into the broader spectrum of classes yet. You're building on a caster chasis and adding continued spellcasting advancement and other abilities, so it's probably going to be a fairly strong class, but past that I can't say yet. - TarkisFlux 18:21, February 15, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Ok, if that's the case, then saves (except will) know mirror the SRD:Mystic Theurge prestige class - just to keep it more standard. The spell casting or manifesting has been altered, check it out. --Franken Kesey 23:11, February 15, 2010 (UTC) Why It's Incomplete The below is in reference to the post: "Is it reasonable to delete just "Various parts missing", because all are areas filled?" --Franken Kesey 04:21, February 15, 2010 (UTC) Look, you really need to walk into this class with an objective mind emptied of what you know as a creator. Imagine that you are someone who knows nothing about this class, but is interested by the name. So you go to look at it, because maybe you want to play it. If you look at your class from that mind, you'll quickly see why it's incomplete -- because it is not playable. Example: your level 1 ability. This says "Sage Demeanour (Ex): A Nahlásit can replace their dexterity modifier with their wisdom modifier. ". But what does that even mean? Replace dexterity modifier with wisdom modifier for what? And how? Surgo 04:45, February 15, 2010 (UTC) :I realise this class is not understandable, unplayable etc... and have not stated otherwise. Trying to answer and fix any errors that come up. But incomplete, if it were to be defined as fields not being filled (the definition under Dungeons and Dragons Wiki:Content Requirements); I cannot understand. The incomplete template is not what I'm referring to (possibly the reason for this confusion). I'm referring to the line inside that reads: "Various parts missing or not understandable, unplayable as of yet. See talk page for more." Questioning if just the "various parts missing" should be deleted. But the template remain; helping me (and other users) narrow down what the problems are. I was also thinking of adding rhetorical or grammatical issues (or something to that extent) - does that sound reasonable? Also is the "Sage Demeanour" better? Thank you for taking the time to make that clearer. --Franken Kesey 05:52, February 15, 2010 (UTC) ::Due to resent alteration of Dungeons and Dragons Wiki:Content Requirements, the incomplete template will be left unchanged. --Franken Kesey 07:10, February 15, 2010 (UTC) :::(Blegh, edit conflict. I explain that change below, though the change itself could have been inferred from context and other wiki actions (that you may not have been around for) previously. It is not directed at you specifically, apologies if it seemed like that.) :::I wrote that content requirements section to codify the stance that we were taking towards half finished articles, and it looks like I missed a really important part of that thought. We really care about having playable material hosted here and about not hosting non-playable material. That doesn't mean it has to be good material (though we of course prefer that sort), it just has to be complete to the point that you can use it without making up your own mechanics. And because we want people to be able use the site effectively and not get turned off by unusable work, we care more about that even more than we care about it being pretty and formatted correctly (which we care about a lot). So I went and dropped a sentence to that effect in there. Thanks for pointing out that the thought was missing something, even if you weren't intending to. :::Regarding your specific querry, sure, you can go remove that section from the incomplete template if it's bothering you. It doesn't change the fact that lots here is vague to the point of being unusable and mechanically incomplete, but you can remove that section if you want to. The template should stay until you get the class features cleaned up or move it to a user sandbox. :::And here are some other things to look at that I got from a quick glance at the article (haven't looked at it in any depth yet): :::*I have no idea what "Previous Level Advancement" in your table means, how it's restricted, etc. When WotC does this with prestige classes they generally use a different column header and explain it down in the class features. :::*I have no idea how Body Guardian is supposed to work or why it references muscle memory, only that it references a table (whcih is really a list) and has some bizarre "do this within X levels" instead of an actually workable "do this withing X weeks / months / years" requirement. There's vague mention of acquiring them from a willing dying creature, but no discussion of what happens if that creature is ressurected or what type of guardian they turn into from the list below. :::*Body guardian is (ex), but all of the guardians in the list below are (su). How does that even work? :::*Body Guardian 2 happens after you lose the previous one... and doesn't actually appear to be an ability at all. :::*I only know you get Groks at all because I scrolled down the page until I saw them. I have no idea how they work, and only assume you get them at level 1 instead of 12 because you put a level 1 through 12 progression in the table. They need to be spelled out more clearly, added to the ability table, and moved up with the rest of the level 1 abilities. :::- TarkisFlux 07:30, February 15, 2010 (UTC) ::::Thank you for clarifying anyway, here are my responses. ::::*I replaced "Spellcasting" with "Previous Level Advancement", so that a non-spellcasting class could still level with this prestige class. ::::*I had forgotten the list for a while, and was going down a different road (when using it). Has been promptly deleted (with its references). The guardian uses your body, and cannot be resurrected. ::::*I'll work on "guardian 2". It would suck if your prone all the time, so continuing with the guardian option was my solution. Do you have any solutions for the prone delima? ::::*fixed groks to have the spell template. Were is the ability table? ::::- Thanks --Franken Kesey 08:21, February 15, 2010 (UTC) :::::More later, since it's late for me, but I still don't know what Previous Level Advancement does since you still haven't said what it advances. It sorta looks like it advances everything, and that's bad. Spellcasting advancement doesn't advance any other class features, would this advance them? Would a wizard get bonus feats on top of spellcaster advancement? Would a druid boost their wild shape as well as their spellcastings and whatnot? Would a rogue gain all of their sneak attack, trap sense, evasion, uncanny dodge, whatever abilities? If that's what you intend with it, then there is no reason for anyone to not take this PrC ever if they can afford a 2-3 level "dip". One of those levels needs to go to getting a 1st level trans spell, and the other levels go towards this class when you don't advance your base class at the same time. Which is a really bizarre thing to do with a PrC. You lose almost nothing and gain a ridiculous amount of stuff for that bargain price. You're not supposed to get all of it, with every other PrC you're supposed to get what it gives you instead of what you could have gotten with your base class. There's no tradeoff here with that formulation of the ability. - TarkisFlux 08:37, February 15, 2010 (UTC) ::::::NOOO! Yiks, way to powerful. If you assumed that I'll change it back to spellcasting. Ya I can see how you came to that. Sorry for the confusion. --Franken Kesey 09:07, February 15, 2010 (UTC) :::::::It doesn't have to stay spellcasting, you just have to be very explicit about what it does and does not advance. Which is why WotC hsa that whole blurb about spellcasting in their PrCs. You could probably open it up to Manifester levels as well if you wanted (and stuck an or ___ discipline power up in the prereqs to cover that instead of the spell) since you already have no (psi) as a potential prereq. - TarkisFlux 17:46, February 15, 2010 (UTC) Balance Level In my cursory evaluation while looking for spelling errors (which are quite common on this page, in all honesty), it seems that this class is kind of all over the place when it comes to its power level. Given that the earliest possible entry level is 4th, you are effectively giving time stop (admittedly once per two days, but still time stop) at level 14 (3 levels before the wizard can acquire it for one per day use, I believe). Not only that but all the "groks" are Extraordinary abilities, which means they can't be hindered by antimagic field or any other magic/psionic suppressor the way wizard spells can. Combined with the increased spellcasting in all but four levels, that's a pretty potent (and IMO, wizard-level, if not higher) combination. Now then, Mind out of Body is potentially powerful, given that you can use your "grok" even while in a semi-ethereal state. But leaving the body prone (which probably should be helpless, which would cause even more problems) kills any usefulness it may have unless you can be absolutely assured that it is safe, which basically means that unless you have the ability to shrink your body down to size and put in in a bag of holding, you would have to be able to act preemptively before an encounter even starts to ensure security of your unmoving body (which I'm assuming kills you if it is destroyed). Therefore, that ability is mostly useless until you get Body Guardian. Body Guardian could be game-breaking or it could be pathetic. If the body guardian has no feats of their own (given that you say it has to come from a dying creature, which means you could assimilate your wizard upon his death if you had a mind to) and cannot access yours, then the only thing they can really do is run away while you try and help in your ethereal state (no one in their right mind would try and attack you if killing the body kills you). On the other hand, if they gain any feats/abilities they possessed in life as well as yours, then you have three characters in two (you with your grok, them with whatever they had and your grok). Whechever way you choose to make it will likely make a difference in its final BP. One last thought on Body Guardian: making the symbiosis based on levels is highly impractical since you have to eventually set them free anyway according to the description for Unfinished Business. As such, you will end up with another useless Body Guardian just as your current one reached the height of its potential. That would totally suck for the player, especially since the other option is to risk the guardian taking over (which there are no mechanics for, BTW). So either way, you're screwed. Given these hige potential power fluctuations, I would be reluctant to call this Wizard level (which may be good, given your professed hatred for over-powered content, which I fail to contemplate because I honestly love powergaming) I know that the Meld and stuff is supposed to add to the flavor of the guy who controls matter, but it just doesn't do it for me. This class strikes me as a possessing controller-type, which doesn't fit the previous archetype. It basically strikes as a cross between the Stranger with the Burning Eyes (possession) and Jota's Geomancer (effects based on what surface you're standing on/next to), but not really fitting either of those archetypes as is. I'm not a rater, so you don't have to appease me, but it's something to think about. - TG Cid 14:38, February 16, 2010 (UTC) :It is in my interest, to give this PrC its true potential, and clear up the gross anomaly's. So, most suggestions will deeply effect this class - I greatly appreciate them. I am new to this twist, so loopholes and confusion, I am riddled with. In reference to time stop, I was under the impression that a 9th level Sorcerer/ Wizard could cast it - not that it was a 9th level spell! (yes very new). The amount has been changed. :Would it be better if damage could be given to you when in mind out of body (in the form of non-lethal)? :The unfinished businesses, was to counter balance the guardian boosts. But on further evaluation, it seems keeping the guardian bound to you permanently would be ok (without the possible negative effects). The body guardian also now has 2 feats, from its previous life, at start; and a bonus one when greater and when the businesses if finished. Is that better? :My main source of inspiration for this class is from the book Stranger in a Strange Land; mind out of body and groks. But this gave me a few questions, as noted below with solutions: :*what to do to protect the body - the birth of the body guardian. :*the problems with being ethereal - still have not fine tuned yet. :*if one could control the inanimate, why not the animate? - charm groks came into being and the possession was started :*could matter have traits and a personality? - melds :*when it comes down to it there is no pure element - each is part of another. But is there a pure mind - or do they merge into each other? - possession was deepened (the zoyk created). :If you have any better solutions let me know. Its very interesting that there are similar classes - I'll check them out. Thanks --Franken Kesey 19:30, February 16, 2010 (UTC) Many of the previous responses are nullified before this line. The ideas behind this class get greatly altered after this point. Focus! (Eiji Hyrules' Mass edit) Phew, ok, so I fixed your BAB, your saves, and cleaned up the language, but... but... no matter how much I pretty up this class, it won't just word. Power aside (and there are many things which I will say are overpowered), your biggest problem here is lack of focus. What is this class? A wizard? A psion? It gets these strange extraordinary spells, but it's also elementally attuned to nature, but suddenly we're also a ghost and possessing people, and then something else here now and... While I've fixed many of your mechanics to the closest thing I could think of, quite a few is still unworkable or untranslatable. I'd like to help you, but first I need to figure out just exactly what this class does. The arcane archer shoots spells through his bow. The archmage gives special effects to his castings. The abjurant champion is amaster of the defensive spell and gishery. And this? Well, I frankly haven't a clue. If you can summerize your purpose in a single phrase, then we'll get somewhere. Unfortunately it will be my suggestion that a whole lot of the things be cut once you decide precisely what you are here, be it ghost-master, elemental expert, or whatever else. So, what is the situation? -- Eiji Hyrule 19:59, February 17, 2010 (UTC) :Your right, swallowed more than I should. Focus will be altered to the following: wizard focus, deletion of the melds, and a greater interest with the "ghost master and possessor" side of things. Give me a day to revamp the class. :I have a few questions, praise, and alterations on your tremendous editing project (see below). :Alterations ::*Just realised that there are very few counters to extraordinary ability's. Shall depreciate greatly. ::*50 pts of dmg before you have to roll! I found that to be way to much has been reduced to 35. But thank you for simplifying it. Maby It can be raised to 50 at a higher level. ::*Added what happens if save fails. ::*Not all nahlasit are evil. The effects of possession can be that of an "angel", or be used to assist someone in a craft skill. Thus Protect form evil does not always apply (removed); yet I like Break enchantment. (thanks) :Praise ::Yeh, incorporeal is way better than ethereal! ::Thanks for revamping the guardian, much more coherent. :Questions ::*Do you know of a lesser soul entrapment than SRD:Trap the Soul? Its just a 9th level (costly) spell, and a nahlasit gets body guardian at level 4. Also if from a willing creature, then many of the saves and such from trap soul would not be necessary. Thus could a lower levelled spell be used? ::*Noting that it was my intent to be able to posses people as well as monsters, should charm person be added in with charm monster? ::*Do you think possession could be done while incorporeal? Or is that just to much? ::*If expelled from possessed, and during the possession the creature just happened to walk away from your helpless body. Does your body teleport to were you are? does the guardian have to follow? Would it be better, when removed, to come back in an incorporeal state (and have to find your body)? :Thanks mate, I'll be jammin' to make this more coherent. Its been more than a drop in a bucket from you. --Franken Kesey 00:31, February 18, 2010 (UTC) ::Cool, lesse. Good good... the 50 pts thing was basing it off massive damage kickin, but lowering it is all fine and good. Yada yada. Ah, Protection from Evil. I wasn't actually implying that possessing is evil, Protection from Evil (and Good and Chaos and Law) state they suppress compulsions, including possessions. You aren't expelled but so long as they have it up, you can't affect them (it's a very good spell). That and amusingly enough the no-compulsion effect isn't alignment specific so a PoG actually works on a demon possession as well as an angel. ::I do have a suggestion for reference. Incorporeality is a powerful trait, but it's been done before, in psionics. Look up the Psion Uncarnate. It's on the SRD (and thus probably on this Wikia). You can figure out the earliest you can enter that class (looking at it, it's 6th level earliest), meaning it's capstone comes at level 16. Compare this to your own class when handling incorporeality issues. Of course, Psion Uncarnates don't possess, you'll have to figure how much that is worth on your own. ::For soul trapping the easiest way is Thinaun, a material in complete warrior. The sparkling metal absorbs souls, can be made into weapons, etc. One soul per chunk of thinaun. Also, Magic Jar may or may not work. Thinaun, just off memory, is a bit more expensive than adamantium, something like 10k or so. Possessing while incorporeal is probably the most likely event. Perhaps you'd get help if you'd think this as Magic Jar: The Class. Where you're basically doing Magic Jar + Ghostform, in new and interesting ways. ::Not too clear what you're saying on the last bit. If a monster moves your body, do you still teleport to your body? I'd say yes. If your body is inhabited by your body guardian it should be a nonissue since your body can now run away. ::Anyway, glad I could be of aid. -- Eiji Hyrule 04:00, February 18, 2010 (UTC) ::: For inspiration: Magic Jar - the class. --Ghostwheel 04:26, February 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::That's quit intriguing about the Protect From Evil, will be replaced. Minimum level increased to 5 - and some of the requirements have been increased. I have been looking at the wrong PrC for relativity and balancing - this is so much more powerful than a SRD:Psion Uncarnate. I do a complete spell makeover (again); hopefully reducing the difference. I'll check out magic jar - whats the volume and wieght is of a "chunk" of thinaun? With the last bit I was referencing "If expelled, you appear in the next closest space to the target." Are you referring to the mind or body? A character could just walk of with the nahlasit mind - does the helpless body follow? Or is the guardian inclined to follow? ::::Checked out the Stranger_with_the_Burning_Eyes_(3.5e_Prestige_Class) - I though I was being original! Dam! some one already has a possessing prestige class. Yet on closer inspection, the above PrC appears to be purely possession based; while this class has only 1 possession class feature, and an improvement to it (greater). There are a few similarity grant it - but you never completely take over the target just parts. While the for-mentioned can completely take over at first level! The class alters in a weaker fashion (in relative terms). But I'll take a gander. The trick is not to completely control - its to make others think they're in control, and channel their actions. Thanks --Franken Kesey 05:13, February 18, 2010 (UTC) The SgtLion Discussion I'm in need of an editor for the Nahlasit (3.5e Prestige Class) - would you be interested? I'd be some good practice for you. Though I like edits to have a twist of insanity in them. Can that be done. A good editor should never go unnoticed - but an insane one, is something to kill for! --Franken Kesey 16:19, February 18, 2010 (UTC) :Aha, a most admirable style of speech and attitude to things. I only tend to edit for grammatical and lingual purposes, simple punctuation, sentence structure, e.t.c. which I can do. If you're looking for edits of a different kind, don't search me. The enthusiasm and faith is most appreciated. --SgtLion 16:26, February 18, 2010 (UTC) ::The insanity part is just bull-shiting and making a pun at GD - coherence is more what I'm looking for. You will find a little bull-shit in most of my pages - its purely to open the mind. But if it makes it incoherent - edit responsibly. Sorry for the confusion --Franken Kesey 16:33, February 18, 2010 (UTC) :::Thanks for clearing a few things up, hows the concept hanging? --Franken Kesey 16:58, February 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::Ah, that was just a small check-over. And I hate to be so slow-minded, but I'm still not entirely sure what you're looking for from me at the moment. If you could reiterate once more, it'd be most appreciated. My apologies. --SgtLion 17:05, February 18, 2010 (UTC) :::::This class will be deleted in 2 days - unless it is made "complete". I have come to understand this to mean; making "not understandable, unplayable" no longer applicable. I'd hate to loose all the work that me and other users have put in. I do not know you very well, but from what I took form your comment on Surgos' talk page, it seemed your input would be helpful. I just need to clear up all confusion on this page - and greatly appreciate any concept stuff. "By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth." - George Carlin; thanks --Franken Kesey 17:21, February 18, 2010 (UTC) Name Noting that this class no longer melds stuff, I was thinking of changing its name. Does anyone have suggestions? :I know I'm answering my own question. Would "Ghost (or spectre) Yatrī" be a better name? Yātrī means traveller in Hindu - moving from mind to mind and back again. Other alternatives are "Viveka" meaning conscience, or "Akarsaka Ghost" meaning charming ghost. Vote below, If no votes will change to "Ghost (or spectre) Yatrī". ::Name will be changed to Viveka Spectre (may take a few days) Incomplete Template I'd hate to loss all the work that so many users have done to this class. Noting that this class will be deleted in 2 days - unless the template is removed (or its put in a sand box). I was wondering if it could be removed, and the status be replaced with "in construction". Please place any and all reasons that the template should remain here - I'll jam them through. If their is no significant issues after the revamp could the template be removed? If there are significant problems (after the revamp) I'll move it to a sand box - does anyone have any sand? Thank you for your contributions. --Franken Kesey 18:15, February 18, 2010 (UTC) :In construction is still incomplete, and we don't want it in the main navigation for a number of reasons. If it's all better after the revamp, it'll get pulled and you'll be fine. It doesn't have to be perfect, just complete and playable and make sense; there are plenty of mechanically complete things on the wiki that still get minor changes afterwards when issues come up. Otherwise we can sandbox it and stick it with the Help Wanted template if you still want active user input on it even though it's in your sandbox (where other user editting is otherwise frowned upon). - TarkisFlux 18:43, February 18, 2010 (UTC) ::That makes sense, what issues do you have with this PrC? --Franken Kesey 18:53, February 18, 2010 (UTC) :::I've got a few minutes, so here's a more current list: :::#Groks - You still get them at level 1 yes? It's not clear again since you removed it from the class ability table. :::#Groks per day - The wording of your formulas should be cleaned up. I can parse it, but you have references to spells per day that don't belong and change the wording style between levels. This needs a consistent phrasing for every grok level that references groks instead of spells. :::#Body Guardian - Is the spirit limited in your body at all, or could they walk you off a cliff if you made them mad? You should probably say that they gain your hp, saves, skills, bab, etc. instead of "the body's". When they use a 1st level grok, does it count against your daily total? :::#Alien Hand - This needs an action type. What do I have to do to take over an appendage? Can you also provide some examples of what I could do with it in combat (like you do for possession)? Do I have to pay any additional action cost after I take it over, or is making it attack itself / stand still / drink acid / whatever a free action on my part? :::#Possession - If there's no duration for that ability, please say so explicitly. What about creatures with multiple sets of arms / legs? If I say arms do I get all of them? And if I say legs on an animal can I just make them stand still until I feel like leaving or they make their low DC save? Also, can I do this while I'm mind out of bodied, or do I have to use my physical body for it? :::#Greater Possession - While I think that requiring someone do something for X levels is an unworkable requirement, its inclussion doesn't make the ability incomplete. It does make this ability ridiculously vague though, since I have to gain two levels while in the body of something else to even use it. Do I have to spend that time entirely within them? Can I take quick breaks? Can I hop back and forth across 5 guys and gain two levels and then drop 5 zoyks? Can I start a guy when I'm level 9 and drop a zoyk immediately at level 11 when I get the ability, or do I have ot have two levels with the ability on top of two levels in them? There's too much room for interpretation here, and it leads to very very different outlooks for the ability. :::That should do it for things that are vague to the point on incompleteness, or otherwise just missing. There's lots of other things here that I'm concerned about or have issues with, but they'll have to wait for now. - TarkisFlux 19:46, February 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::Responses ::::#Groks - put back onto table ::::#Groks per day - rephrased groks (I had been trying to keep it from getting repetitive - but order is better) ::::#Body Guardian - I already had stuff on saves BAB etc. Re-did the guardian, giving it limits. But it could still walk of a cliff - so friendly is very important! In the interest of keeping this organised, the guardians groks count against the daily total; but you can get 12 at a very early level so this should not greatly effect anything. ::::#Alien Hand - Revampt check it out ::::#Possession - fixed duration problem. See on limbs. Yes you could just make them stand still. I thought I had already added that you could do them in mind out of body (fixed) thank for letting me now, added limit. ::::#Greater Possession - Deleted the X levels. You could "drop 5 at 11th level" but you would need an amazing wisdom score: noting: can only have (nahlásit level + Wis mod)/7, zoyks at one time. Meaning your Wis score would have to be at least 34 due to the fact that you lose at least 1 wis each. Have you ever heard of such a high wisdom? I will be doing some more edits to the greater possession section - but have to go. Thanks for your time --Franken Kesey 21:05, February 18, 2010 (UTC) :::::How are the alternatives? What are your thoughts on the zoyk removal? ::::::Are you implying that once the above is fixed the template could be removed? I will be removing the template, if there are no more questions that are major issues for this PrC, in 4 hours. Please let me know if I should not. Also I am always open to suggestions - even after the template if removed. Thanks --Franken Kesey 02:18, February 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::::: Why it's still incomplete: :::::::#Number of groks per day isn't mentioned. (Why are they extraordinary and not spell-likes?) :::::::#Mind out of Body - Doesn't say what stats your mind has, etc. :::::::#Alien Hand - can you act normally while using this ability? Do you possess the limb? Etc. :::::::#Greater Possession - opposed check--what check? How often can it be used? ::::::: Might be some other things I missed, but that's what I saw at a glance. --Ghostwheel 09:17, February 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::#The number of groks per day is mentioned right after each level of groks. A nahlasit casts the groks by saying their true names, possessing and charming the spells (and pisonics) themselves. Thus I thought it would be better for them to be Ex, is this two powerful? ::::::::#gain all mental stats (noting its only the mind) ::::::::#Minus the movement penalty, you can act normally, while using alien hand. (see changes) ::::::::#The check is in the middle of the first paragraph. You can use it as often as you want, main limiting factor is "can only have (nahlásit level + Wis mod)/7" (see above) - have you seriously ever heard of wisdom score in the fourtys? This can only be done once every twelve days. (was already there). I also increased Wisdom lost by 1 ::::::::Keep the questions coming - cannot fix unless I know its broken. Thanks again --Franken Kesey 17:18, February 19, 2010 (UTC)